Michael has a very valid point!. You will find that although the data is provide for people to look for free using their own applications.
When it comes to permission for others to use this data in commercial applications such as P3D then agreements and fees are usually the way forward.
That will be why there is a subscription fee for FS live Traffic. As they will also have subscription fees to pay per user to the data providers.
I hope AirNav Systems develop a P3D version as this is probably the only viable option if we want to see this.
Real life traffic integration in the simulator (ADS-B satellite data)
mmmmmmmmm don't know I don't agree, but we have to admit everyone here could be wrong. A lawyer know very well if we are wrong or not, I guess here were are not lawyers unless we have a lawyer here reading this?
Well, as far as I know when the information is provided freely, you can use that information. For example, if the public TV broadcast a TV program, I record it with my recorder and I send the TV program to my friends, that is completely legal. What is not legal is downloading illegaly something. For example, downloading illegaly a computer program. That's not legal. But it is legal, if you download the trial version. The frontier between legal and non-legal sometimes is not clearly defined.
In this case we talk, besides, about public data. I mean, the flights are not property of anyone. Is like the number of cars of the roads in the US, that is public information.
Despite all this, USA have the best copyright law in the world, very permissive with the copyright. For example, someone using the obtained information for research or learning, enter in the "Fair Use" and can use freely the information without having to fear the copyright.
https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107
I quote verbatim: Copyright Law of the United States - "Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair. - The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes"
Prepar3D enter directly in the section 107 (teaching, scholarship, research), so the law says you can use that data. More easy to understand: Prepar3D do not sell the information. Prepar3D do not ask me for money to let me know the airplanes close to me, Prepar3D just show me the air traffic close to me to allow me to learn how to fly with real life traffic (teaching, scholarship, research) - enter directly in section 107
What you cannot do, for example, is to get that data, open a website and earn money reselling that data. Of course you cannot do that, but for learning purposes, section 107 says you are free.
Seriously, USA have the best copyright law in the world.
I am absolutely sure a lawyer there would agree you can use the information freely, even without asking permision. HOWEVER, I sent a message to Radarbox24 to ask them if they would allow to insert that information in the simulator. If they agree, then we can forget everything, if they agree, they agree.
I think we shouldn't think about this :D really, it's a legal topic that is better for lawyers not for us.
I am dreaming about real life traffic.
Perhaps Carenado or Alabeo could do that add-on... I did not send them any message yet :)
Well, as far as I know when the information is provided freely, you can use that information. For example, if the public TV broadcast a TV program, I record it with my recorder and I send the TV program to my friends, that is completely legal. What is not legal is downloading illegaly something. For example, downloading illegaly a computer program. That's not legal. But it is legal, if you download the trial version. The frontier between legal and non-legal sometimes is not clearly defined.
In this case we talk, besides, about public data. I mean, the flights are not property of anyone. Is like the number of cars of the roads in the US, that is public information.
Despite all this, USA have the best copyright law in the world, very permissive with the copyright. For example, someone using the obtained information for research or learning, enter in the "Fair Use" and can use freely the information without having to fear the copyright.
https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107
I quote verbatim: Copyright Law of the United States - "Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair. - The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes"
Prepar3D enter directly in the section 107 (teaching, scholarship, research), so the law says you can use that data. More easy to understand: Prepar3D do not sell the information. Prepar3D do not ask me for money to let me know the airplanes close to me, Prepar3D just show me the air traffic close to me to allow me to learn how to fly with real life traffic (teaching, scholarship, research) - enter directly in section 107
What you cannot do, for example, is to get that data, open a website and earn money reselling that data. Of course you cannot do that, but for learning purposes, section 107 says you are free.
Seriously, USA have the best copyright law in the world.
I am absolutely sure a lawyer there would agree you can use the information freely, even without asking permision. HOWEVER, I sent a message to Radarbox24 to ask them if they would allow to insert that information in the simulator. If they agree, then we can forget everything, if they agree, they agree.
I think we shouldn't think about this :D really, it's a legal topic that is better for lawyers not for us.
I am dreaming about real life traffic.
Perhaps Carenado or Alabeo could do that add-on... I did not send them any message yet :)
Hi abranpuko, I guess you meant the Steven Spielberg and the message bycicle... I received it in my email, but I cannot find it in the thread? But I've read it. I'm also excited with this, yes. I did not receive any reply yet from Radarbox24.com but I also sent a new message to more real life traffic websites, so I hope to get a message soon, and then, I will send emails to all add on makers, to see if someone could do this.
But if someone from Lockheed Martin would like to do it
and drop us some lines here oh God, that would be wonderful 
But if someone from Lockheed Martin would like to do it
and drop us some lines here oh God, that would be wonderful very interesting subject, I'm reasonably sure that providing no money changes hands you can display data in a 3d environment in whatever form you like from a 3d bar chart to series of 3d spheres, all you need is an app to interpret the data, it doesn't need to be educational but for prepar3d it would be
the key is to grab the data... that website is sending and receiving data always in the same way...
get_news
combined_data
and it's a JSON file... this would work a FS Global Real Weather, an external application, but injecting data every second to the simulator... it's absolutely feasible but we need a web programmer willing to do this, I could perhaps ask Stefan (the FS Global Real Weather programmer)... I think I'll open a thread there right now to see if they like the idea...
get_news
combined_data
and it's a JSON file... this would work a FS Global Real Weather, an external application, but injecting data every second to the simulator... it's absolutely feasible but we need a web programmer willing to do this, I could perhaps ask Stefan (the FS Global Real Weather programmer)... I think I'll open a thread there right now to see if they like the idea...
@Danielg
Just because data is visible on a public website does not mean it's free for use by anyone for whatever they want. It appears that Radarbox gets it's data from AirNav systems (See http://www.radarbox24.com/xmldata). I do not know the details of the licence under which this data is provided by AirNav systems, but I can almost guarantee that it won't be "free" (for one, as perviously pointed out, they are selling their own FS integration).
Your argument about it being legal to record TV programs (and then distribute physically) will likely not apply in the same way to data such as this.
I've never used FS Live Traffic so don't know how it performs, but I imagine that while the integration they have achieved may work, I highly doubt it's flawless. Here's some questions that come to mind when thinking about how a feature like this might exist:
- How does this traffic work with the ATC system? Given that the ATC system cannot know where the traffic will go next, I imagine ATC is broken.
- Even if it does work with ATC, how would the traffic respond to the user? How would the user request to land at a busy airport where there is lots of real world traffic? There may not be enough separation between real aircraft to allow the ATC to assign the user an approach. One solution to this would of course be to scale the volume of traffic down.
- How is the data smoothed? It's highly unlikely that the simulator would be able to sufficient traffic data at a reasonable frequency to allow the traffic to run anywhere near "real time". The only way I can see around this would be to run behind the live data and to apply smoothing while "looking ahead" at the traffic's behaviour in order to smooth it realistically. In this situation I imagine you'd probably end up with a delay of at around 10-15 minutes (which may of course be acceptable).
These are just three very quick questions that sprung to my mind when I read about this idea, but there will be hundreds more things that would need to be taken into consideration before implementation could even begin.
Now, I'm of course none of us (so far I believe) are P3D Developers, and the only people who know if this is even technically possible will be the people familiar with the codebase, so you can't just say "it's easy, here's my idea of how to implement it"...
Even if it were technically possible, whether or not it's in line with PREPAR3Ds goals and target audience is a completely different question. Don't forget that small-fry users like (i imagine..) most of the users on the forum are not LM's main audience. I'd imagine they have much larger clients who have quite different needs from the platform, and who will be licensing the platform for (hundreds of?) thousands of dollars. Even if this feature makes sense to us doesn't mean it makes financial or business sense for LM to spend the time and resources implementing it. Unfortunately, I personally can't see what this feature would bring to the table for users using the simulator for real flight instruction/training (sure, they could improve the AI system to make it more realistic, but that is no where near the same problem as using real-world data for the AI).
However, as I said initially, it's a great idea, and it'd be incredible to see a full implementation of this.
Just because data is visible on a public website does not mean it's free for use by anyone for whatever they want. It appears that Radarbox gets it's data from AirNav systems (See http://www.radarbox24.com/xmldata). I do not know the details of the licence under which this data is provided by AirNav systems, but I can almost guarantee that it won't be "free" (for one, as perviously pointed out, they are selling their own FS integration).
Your argument about it being legal to record TV programs (and then distribute physically) will likely not apply in the same way to data such as this.
I've never used FS Live Traffic so don't know how it performs, but I imagine that while the integration they have achieved may work, I highly doubt it's flawless. Here's some questions that come to mind when thinking about how a feature like this might exist:
- How does this traffic work with the ATC system? Given that the ATC system cannot know where the traffic will go next, I imagine ATC is broken.
- Even if it does work with ATC, how would the traffic respond to the user? How would the user request to land at a busy airport where there is lots of real world traffic? There may not be enough separation between real aircraft to allow the ATC to assign the user an approach. One solution to this would of course be to scale the volume of traffic down.
- How is the data smoothed? It's highly unlikely that the simulator would be able to sufficient traffic data at a reasonable frequency to allow the traffic to run anywhere near "real time". The only way I can see around this would be to run behind the live data and to apply smoothing while "looking ahead" at the traffic's behaviour in order to smooth it realistically. In this situation I imagine you'd probably end up with a delay of at around 10-15 minutes (which may of course be acceptable).
These are just three very quick questions that sprung to my mind when I read about this idea, but there will be hundreds more things that would need to be taken into consideration before implementation could even begin.
Now, I'm of course none of us (so far I believe) are P3D Developers, and the only people who know if this is even technically possible will be the people familiar with the codebase, so you can't just say "it's easy, here's my idea of how to implement it"...
Even if it were technically possible, whether or not it's in line with PREPAR3Ds goals and target audience is a completely different question. Don't forget that small-fry users like (i imagine..) most of the users on the forum are not LM's main audience. I'd imagine they have much larger clients who have quite different needs from the platform, and who will be licensing the platform for (hundreds of?) thousands of dollars. Even if this feature makes sense to us doesn't mean it makes financial or business sense for LM to spend the time and resources implementing it. Unfortunately, I personally can't see what this feature would bring to the table for users using the simulator for real flight instruction/training (sure, they could improve the AI system to make it more realistic, but that is no where near the same problem as using real-world data for the AI).
However, as I said initially, it's a great idea, and it'd be incredible to see a full implementation of this.
Wills, hi.
Are you lawyer? if you are not, and I am not, you and me are not qualified to talk about the topic.
Legal stuff is complicated. Seriously, we can write long paragraphs of texts and you could be wrong or I could be wrong. A lawyer, expert in Copyright can reply all our questions. However, sometimes people think they have some rights and they don't. Wikipedia faced many trials against museums for their pictures. According some famous museums, Monalisa cannot be displayed in Wikipedia, because that is a property of the Louvre. Fake, there are some data that is public. Pictorial art, it's a mandkind property. Its culture. There are many possible interpretations about law, and I was dealing with copyright subjects in the company I was working in the past. According my experience, copyright is a very complicated subject in which only qualified personnel (lawyers, and not any lawyer, only an specialist in Intellectual Property) can deal with these subjects.
So I won't defend I am right, neither I will defend you are. I will defend, a lawyer is the correct one to deal with these subjects.
Only some hints about this: When a website provide information and the disclaimer of that website don't limit the usage of the information, that information is provided without restrictions.
The good thing about this is to talk with the propietary of the information, and I talked with them this weekend
I've talked with Mr. Andre Brandao from AirNav Systems and he told me they would be interested about injecting real life traffic into the Prepar3D simulator.
What would be the conditions for this? I don't know, I will be contacting him tonight.
My first contact with them was telling them I am a Prepar3D user, I opened a thread here and some people (other Prepar3D users) were interested in this experiencie, so I told them it would be great if they create a product or collaborate with Lockheed Martin about this.
I'll be communicating the replies I get from AirNav systems in this thread.
ATC subject: The suggestion you said about scaling the traffic are acceptable. I've been taking a look to the frenquency in which data is updated and it's about 180 microseconds (ms) everytime it is updated. Programming we can find many solutions, scaling the traffic, many possible solutions. I think the simulator can deal with the traffic perfectly, however to know how you can deal with this, we would need to have the programming code of Prepar3D. I guess Flight Simulator X was programmed in C, so I imagine Lockheed should have the code in C and dealing with that code is the way we can find solutions of the ATC. That is a closed subject, Lockheed won't open the code, so they have to work about this...
I am not developer, as far as I know any in this thread is a developer? if someone is a developer and is willing to do this, please say Hello...
I've been talking with developers this weeek, and here is my report:
- I've asked Carenado... sadly they won't do it. They said they have a lot of work with their planes, and that they thought about this idea long time ago but they don't have time or resources (whatever) so they won't do it.
- I've talked with Stefan from Fly2pilots (FS Global Real Weather), they do an utility to inject weather information in Prepar3D, so I asked them... why not real traffic? Stefan liked the idea, but I only got a simple reply that they would consider this for future products. So no idea if finally they will do this or not.
- I've talked with FS AirNav systems, and Mr. Andre Brandao told me they would be interested... so I will be contacting with them again... and let's know what they say.
PLEASE, ALL PEOPLE HERE WHISH ME GOOD LUCK !!!
Are you lawyer? if you are not, and I am not, you and me are not qualified to talk about the topic.
Legal stuff is complicated. Seriously, we can write long paragraphs of texts and you could be wrong or I could be wrong. A lawyer, expert in Copyright can reply all our questions. However, sometimes people think they have some rights and they don't. Wikipedia faced many trials against museums for their pictures. According some famous museums, Monalisa cannot be displayed in Wikipedia, because that is a property of the Louvre. Fake, there are some data that is public. Pictorial art, it's a mandkind property. Its culture. There are many possible interpretations about law, and I was dealing with copyright subjects in the company I was working in the past. According my experience, copyright is a very complicated subject in which only qualified personnel (lawyers, and not any lawyer, only an specialist in Intellectual Property) can deal with these subjects.
So I won't defend I am right, neither I will defend you are. I will defend, a lawyer is the correct one to deal with these subjects.
Only some hints about this: When a website provide information and the disclaimer of that website don't limit the usage of the information, that information is provided without restrictions.
The good thing about this is to talk with the propietary of the information, and I talked with them this weekend
I've talked with Mr. Andre Brandao from AirNav Systems and he told me they would be interested about injecting real life traffic into the Prepar3D simulator.
What would be the conditions for this? I don't know, I will be contacting him tonight.
My first contact with them was telling them I am a Prepar3D user, I opened a thread here and some people (other Prepar3D users) were interested in this experiencie, so I told them it would be great if they create a product or collaborate with Lockheed Martin about this.
I'll be communicating the replies I get from AirNav systems in this thread.
ATC subject: The suggestion you said about scaling the traffic are acceptable. I've been taking a look to the frenquency in which data is updated and it's about 180 microseconds (ms) everytime it is updated. Programming we can find many solutions, scaling the traffic, many possible solutions. I think the simulator can deal with the traffic perfectly, however to know how you can deal with this, we would need to have the programming code of Prepar3D. I guess Flight Simulator X was programmed in C, so I imagine Lockheed should have the code in C and dealing with that code is the way we can find solutions of the ATC. That is a closed subject, Lockheed won't open the code, so they have to work about this...
I am not developer, as far as I know any in this thread is a developer? if someone is a developer and is willing to do this, please say Hello...
I've been talking with developers this weeek, and here is my report:
- I've asked Carenado... sadly they won't do it. They said they have a lot of work with their planes, and that they thought about this idea long time ago but they don't have time or resources (whatever) so they won't do it.
- I've talked with Stefan from Fly2pilots (FS Global Real Weather), they do an utility to inject weather information in Prepar3D, so I asked them... why not real traffic? Stefan liked the idea, but I only got a simple reply that they would consider this for future products. So no idea if finally they will do this or not.
- I've talked with FS AirNav systems, and Mr. Andre Brandao told me they would be interested... so I will be contacting with them again... and let's know what they say.
PLEASE, ALL PEOPLE HERE WHISH ME GOOD LUCK !!!
VERY GOOD NEWS !!!
I got an email from Andre Brandao, from AirNav Systems
http://www.airnavsystems.com
He told me they are interested to talk with Lockheed Martin about if they could collaborate to implement this feature in the simulator !!!!
Wow the new Prepar3D with real life traffic, if finally they agree to implement it, I think I would have a heart attack of happiness
I NEED A PHONE NUMBER TO CALL TO PREPAR3D...
The only information I have is:
Lockheed Martin Prepar3D®
100 Global Innovation Circle, MP 810
Orlando, Florida 32825-5003
But I would need a phone number where someone from AirNav Systems could call to Lockheed Martin?
I tried to contact Lockheed Martin staff in the forum, but this forum don't allow private messages...
Anyone could help me with this information?
I need a phone number to call to Lockheed Martin Prepar3D in FLA.
Cheers
I got an email from Andre Brandao, from AirNav Systems
http://www.airnavsystems.com
He told me they are interested to talk with Lockheed Martin about if they could collaborate to implement this feature in the simulator !!!!
Wow the new Prepar3D with real life traffic, if finally they agree to implement it, I think I would have a heart attack of happiness
I NEED A PHONE NUMBER TO CALL TO PREPAR3D...
The only information I have is:
Lockheed Martin Prepar3D®
100 Global Innovation Circle, MP 810
Orlando, Florida 32825-5003
But I would need a phone number where someone from AirNav Systems could call to Lockheed Martin?
I tried to contact Lockheed Martin staff in the forum, but this forum don't allow private messages...
Anyone could help me with this information?
I need a phone number to call to Lockheed Martin Prepar3D in FLA.
Cheers
Daniel,
Looks like you have put quiet a bit of effort into this. If AirNavSystems would like to get onboard as developers they are more than welcome to do so.
LM will not be conducting a conversation through middle men / facilitators. So If AirNavSystems are looking for a new avenue of development they should get in-touch themselves.
Looks like you have put quiet a bit of effort into this. If AirNavSystems would like to get onboard as developers they are more than welcome to do so.
LM will not be conducting a conversation through middle men / facilitators. So If AirNavSystems are looking for a new avenue of development they should get in-touch themselves.
Hi Saul,
Yes I won't talk with Lockheed Martin. They (AirNavSystems) will contact you.
I put a lot of effort because I am a very, very fanatic from Flight Simulator!!! For many people, Flight Simulator is a part of their lives. I have a friend, flight instructor and now pilot in Ryanair, and he is pilot thanks to Flight Simulator. This program touched many people deeply in their souls. Flight Simulator represent my dreams, since I was a child. And there are million of people like me out there. Then came this terrible economic crisis, and Microsoft killed it. Many people were extremely sad, until! Lockheed Martin bought it !!!
I talked with Mr. Brandao and they are interested to talk with Lockheed Martin, so my possition about this is telling this idea, asking some developers, but I am outside of this. I do not represent any company. I mean, I won't talk with Lockheed Martin. If you need help, I will be happy to help, but I won't be taking "middle conversations". In other words, I don't represent any company, I am a happy user with a happy idea, and if someone want to develop it, they will have to deal with you directly.
What Andre told me is they will email a media contact from LM and ask for a visit.
I think you are here?
Lockheed Martin Mission Systems & Training
100 Global Innovation Circle
Visitor Center Call for an appointment between hours 10 AM to 2 PM
Phones: 407-306-**** and 407-306-**** (asterisks to avoid spam)
Orlando, FL 32825-5003
I got that info from Lockheed Martin.
Lockheed Martin global website is very huge... so reading about the Prepar3D team, I saw in the Lockheed Martin website, that you are using it to train cadets in the real life. Just imagine training cadets with real life traffic. That would be more than amazing. I still dreaming about this.
!!!
Let's pray to see what happen !!!!
Yes I won't talk with Lockheed Martin. They (AirNavSystems) will contact you.
I put a lot of effort because I am a very, very fanatic from Flight Simulator!!! For many people, Flight Simulator is a part of their lives. I have a friend, flight instructor and now pilot in Ryanair, and he is pilot thanks to Flight Simulator. This program touched many people deeply in their souls. Flight Simulator represent my dreams, since I was a child. And there are million of people like me out there. Then came this terrible economic crisis, and Microsoft killed it. Many people were extremely sad, until! Lockheed Martin bought it !!!
I talked with Mr. Brandao and they are interested to talk with Lockheed Martin, so my possition about this is telling this idea, asking some developers, but I am outside of this. I do not represent any company. I mean, I won't talk with Lockheed Martin. If you need help, I will be happy to help, but I won't be taking "middle conversations". In other words, I don't represent any company, I am a happy user with a happy idea, and if someone want to develop it, they will have to deal with you directly.
What Andre told me is they will email a media contact from LM and ask for a visit.
I think you are here?
Lockheed Martin Mission Systems & Training
100 Global Innovation Circle
Visitor Center Call for an appointment between hours 10 AM to 2 PM
Phones: 407-306-**** and 407-306-**** (asterisks to avoid spam)
Orlando, FL 32825-5003
I got that info from Lockheed Martin.
Lockheed Martin global website is very huge... so reading about the Prepar3D team, I saw in the Lockheed Martin website, that you are using it to train cadets in the real life. Just imagine training cadets with real life traffic. That would be more than amazing. I still dreaming about this.
!!!
Let's pray to see what happen !!!!
