Help with VOR/DME arcs without RMI. Do we have any tutorial or how to?

[danielg]

Hi,
As far as I know the Bonanza A36 from Carenado don't have a RMI - Route Magnetic Indicator in the cockpit... and many times when I am departing from an Airport, I need to tackle a VOR/DME arc.
Many of the tutorials I find to proceed with a VOR/DME arc, requiere a RMI instrument, and I think I don't have any inside the Bonanza A36, so I am wondering if do we have any videotutorial or tutorial available showing me how to follow a VOR/DME arc without RMI?
Cheers



I don't see any RMI ?

[ronh991]

I don't think you need an RMI. You have two VORs in the Bonanza. It's a VOR/DME arc! The RMI is mostly for ADFs.
The first VOR is next to the turn co-ord. the other us under the turn co-ord.

see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp4RfU5tlrU

Or use the GNS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zntv2oH7YOc

I am not an instrument pilot so can't help you other than these videos.

But if you really want the RMI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZOzz1v ... 2e6D-F2SaQ

Finally I think the VOR/DME arc is an arrival procedure not a departure procedure. Have fun.

[WarpD]

DME arc can be used in departures, arrivals and approaches. They are not restricted to approach only.

An RMI will not indicate a VOR to my knowledge as it's typically tracking NDB frequencies.

[ronh991]

DME arc can be used in departures, arrivals and approaches.

Thanks Ed did not know that.

[danielg]

Hi there...

I tried to hold the arch according some tutorials I've seen and my problem actually is about holding the arch. I cannot hold the arc, instead doing the whole arch, I do a kind of spiral and I am getting away from the arch.

I am posting a detailed view of the ARCH I want to follow, Formentera, Spain.




What you see there are two marks, indicating the entrance to the two archs you find in that departure.

I want to follow de MAPED1R departure, so I go for the first arch.

What I do is...

Before I take off, I tune the Fuerteventura VOR in my NAV1 radio

I see in the chart, I must start the arch in the radial 217... so I select the radial 217 with the OBS knob to know when I am crossing it.

The CDI line, broke...

I take off with the runway heading, 190

When I am 5.0 miles away from the Fuerteventura VOR, I turn right 90º... so I put my heading 280...

Then I want until I intercept the radial 217 of the Fuerteventura VOR

At that time, the CDI line centers and it's complete.

I check out my DME, and bingo, I am exactly at 7.0 nautical miles.

The arch must be hold in 7.0 nautical miles... so at this point, everything is fine (I guess?)

My problem start right now.

I want to maintain all the arch at 7.0 nm... and my problem is I cannot

I start the arch at 7.0 nm... but at the end of the arch... I am at 12 nm !!!

So I cannot hold the arch... I am departing, and departing, and departing, so I am not doing an arch... I am doing an spiral...


What do I do to maintain the arch?

Okay... when I am intercepting the radial 217... my CDI line centers and it is completed. I see the DME and it is 7.0 nm

The arch must be maintained at 7.0 nm all the arc.

Okay...

At that time...

I move the OBS knob in 10 degrees... and the HDG in 10 degrees...

Then... I wait the CDI line centers... and again I do the same... I move the OBS knob in 10 degrees... and the HDG in 10 degrees....

Then... I wait the CDI line centers... and again I do the same... and so on...

This is what I do to hold the arch...


However I start the arch in 7.0 nm... and I end the arch at 12 nm !!!

So I am doing something wrong...


I think that the only way you can see what I am doing wrong, is taking a look about how I am flying the arch... and...

I DID A VIDEO ;)


Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrNcCPoyxO4


In the video you can see the arch, and I explain step by step what I do exactly...

If you take a look to the video, you would see my error.


I really need help with this... because I don't know... I am unable to maintain the same distance in the whole arch...


Please could you take a look to the video and tell me what am I doing wrong and how may I correct this?

Cheers

[105OE]

An RMI will not indicate a VOR to my knowledge as it's typically tracking NDB frequencies.

That's completely wrong.
A VOR capable RMI is a very useful tool when flying DME arcs (an RDMI is of course even better)
As a navigation backup, VOR/NDB capable RMIs/RDMIs are installed in almost every airliner.
BTW, even the FSX default B58 and B200 have RMIs that show both, VOR and NDB.

[Peter Dooley]

I agree. This is a common instrument in airliners and often found in glass cockpits.

A simple method to use your old steam VOR/DME is to track the outbound heading to the required DME and then turn 90 degrees to the left or right as required. Remember to allow a small margin of DME for the turn. Then use the old "twist and turn method" This is simply to twist the VOR knob (OBS) by 5 degrees and turn the aircraft heading by the same 5 degrees. The VOR needle will deflect by 2,5 dots. Then fly that heading until the needle returns back to the center point, repeat the "twist to 5, turn to 5" again each time the needle reaches the center point and you will fly a perfect arc.

[Peter Dooley]

Hi Danield

Further to my previous post, may I add the following:

I was not able to look at the video but having read through your procedure again, it seems like the error starts with your first turn. You at 5 DME you turn 90 degrees and somehow find yourself at 7 DME on a radial of 217 FTV. ( This radial relates only to the ARCO arc and not the MAPED arc and that in any event required a turn to 265 degrees to intercept the start of the arc.) At that point, you assume that you are perpendicular to FTV on the MAPED arc which clearly you are not and your 10 degree turns made thereafter will obviously result in you gaining DME.
So your error is firstly that you must do a proper chart briefing before takeoff to orientate yourself to the correct path that needs to be flown. Your second error stems from the first where you should have checked that after your initial turn onto the arc, that you are at 90 degrees to the radial back to FTV which you were not.
Only once you are perpendicular to the VOR / arc can you proceed with the arc. As I suggested in my previous post, use 5 degree turns rather than 10 as it is much easier to maintain. Also, I did not want to confuse you by adding a wind component and suggest that you practice this in calm conditions first. Once you get the hang of it ( and it is really very simple) if there is wind, you need to also check your DME at each point where the CDI needle is centered and you must adjust your heading by one or two degrees to compensate but naturally you must not change the 5 degrees adjustment on the OBS to compensate for wind.

[Peter Dooley]

Further to my previous post, may I add a more simple alternative to the "twist and turn" method.

Intercept the DME arc from any waypoint and determine what radial you are on at the point of intercept. Now turn the OBS 10 degrees left or right as required. To determine the new heading to fly in order to maintain that DME arc, simply add or subtract 90 degrees from the new OBS radial that you have just set and turn your aircraft to that new heading. You could also simply look at the VOR indicator and read off the new heading along the horizontal line of the instrument to determine your new heading to fly. Repeat this until you reach the final outbound or inbound radial.

(I prefer using a twist of 5 degrees as it makes the arc more accurate but 10 degrees is acceptable.)

To make this procedure easy to understand, I have used the DME arc that you are attempting to fly as an example:
Using the departure plate that you have for the Fuerteventura MAPED1R departure, set your OBS to 217 degrees and when you pass the radial R-217 FTV at 7 DME, turn your OBS by 10 degrees to 227 degrees. If you now add 90 degrees to that number (or simply look along the horizontal line of the instrument and read off the direction indicated), you should now turn to that new heading which should read 307 degrees. Once the needle moves to the center again, turn the OBS again by 10 degrees to 237 degrees and once again turn the aircraft to the new heading indicated on the horizontal line of the instrument which should now read 317 degrees. Keep doing this until you reach the final outbound radial of R-332 FTV.

Obviously you also need to keep an eye on the DME as you fly the arc and make small adjustments left or right to your heading if you start drifting off due to wind.

In the case of the departure plate that you are using at Fuerteventura, this is a badly drawn plate in my opinion as it does not give you a starting radial on the MAPED1R departure arc which could make it very confusing even to an instrument pilot, so do not feel too bad that you were not able to fly this departure correctly.

[Peter Dooley]

Correction to previous post and apologies for the error.

In my post above I gave an example using the plate included in the initial post. The error is that I added 90 degrees to the OBS setting of 217 and gave the new heading to fly of 307 instead of adding it to the new OBS setting of 227 degrees which obviously made the new heading to fly, 317 degrees. ( sorry about that folks ) I assume that the more than 500 users that read this post picked this error up when they read the new heading to fly from the horizontal line of dots on the VOR indicator as suggested and noticed that I had added the 90 degrees to the OBS setting before I had turned it on by 10 degrees for the arc.


Updated example:

For Fuerteventura MAPED1R departure, set your OBS to 217 degrees and when you pass the radial R-217 FTV at 7 DME, turn your OBS on by 10 degrees to 227 degrees and simply read the new heading to fly from the horizontal line of dots on the VOR indicator (or just add 90 degrees to the new radial). In this case, the new heading to fly will be 317 degrees.
Repeat this each time the CDI needle return back to the center indicating that you have reached the new radial that you have set on the OBS until you reach the final outbound radial of R-332 FTV."

Hope that helps.