P3D 32 bit no longer sufficient

Other problems or issues not covered by other troubleshooting topics.
mikjet
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Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:14 am

Postby mikjet » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:10 pm

Please tell me you guys are working on 64 bit version of P3D. This is really getting frustrating seeing P3D crash every time I use a high detailed scenery or other addon.
On one hand you guys are doing an amazing job and love the fact you support and endorse other addons on your site. But what's the point of adding those addons if you cannot use them in the sim?

32 bit apps are dead, finished, caput, done, good bye. It's old technology that has outlived its usefulness and in today's market and amazing hardware and addons on the market, there is absolutely no reason why we should not move into the 21st century and use 64 bit applications that will solve this problem once and for all.

I am sure you guys are working on something even if you do not say anything. It has to happen, there is no other way to say or address this. really. It seems weird that in 2015, I have to sit and calculate how much VAS memory I still have and pray that I can safely land my aircraft and often times it's that ding, message "sorry, your computer has run out of available memory."

The problem does highlight how amazing those addons really are, the graphics are phenomenal, details that I truly enjoy, but severely restricted by a memory addressing space that can no longer offer safe execution of those addons.
we all invest a lot of money buying the latest and greatest HW, top of the line CPU, graphic cards, sceneries left and right and with all that we are reduced to running these with LOW or OFF settings just to get by. Ironic, isn't it?

Not really a support post, just a little venting and truly hoping 64 bits P3D is coming our way.

thank you for reading, happy flying all (as long as your VAS lasts),

Michel.

andreask
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Postby andreask » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:00 am

+1

marcenzi
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Location: Katy, Texas USA
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Postby marcenzi » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:50 pm

+1 me too

bobsk8
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Postby bobsk8 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

I don't load my P3D down with add on scenery that almost guarantees a crash. Mine runs smooth as silk...

deltamike172
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Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:45 am

Re: P3D 32 bit no longer sufficient

Postby deltamike172 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:01 pm

I've been hearing rumors about P3D v3, and quite frankly, I'm not interested in any feature other than the ability to run my $60 simulation with my $89 aircraft with my $37 weather app with $150 worth of scenery AT THE SAME TIME without the program crashing predictably due to a lack of 64 bit memory management. Not to mention the amount I've spent on hardware to get the sim running smoothly right before the OOM :)

Any additional money spent on base simulation software should only negate my need to compromise the use of all of my addons. I shouldn't have to pick and choose my addons because the "new" simulator is still, deep down, a 10 year old program that can't handle the addon's designed and advertised around it.

PS. My current workaround is saving my flight periodically in the descent, and then when my OOM finally happens, I can just restart the flight the last time I saved it. Resetting the flight brings the VAS usage down below 3GB to start (without having to load the departure airport) and I can almost always get into my destination cleanly this time around. Seeing as it only takes about 3 minutes to reload on my SSD, it's acceptable. But I'm not going to pay more money for a new version where this is STILL necessary.

Saul
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Location: Manchester, UK

Re: P3D 32 bit no longer sufficient

Postby Saul » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:57 pm

Deltamike,

Its your right to choose if and when you buy updates or addon software. We do don't force anyone to buy and always have our refund policy for those unhappy customers.

Coming here and making demands.. well lets see how that works out.

mikjet
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:14 am

Re: P3D 32 bit no longer sufficient

Postby mikjet » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:02 pm

Saul,

I think you missed the point. I don't think anyone is here to making demands, certainly not me or anyone else here. we are providing feedback for a problem that is plaguing a huge amount of users. I fail to see how "Coming here and making demands.. well lets see how that works out." is helpful to this discussion, especially coming from a moderator.

For me, it would be nice to have a short and sweet announcement from you guys saying "working on 3.0 64 bits" that would be enough for me and make me very happy. Don't need to know when it's coming out or any other info, just that it is in the works. That would go a long way for people who are investing a lot of time and money into something they love and enjoy.

Sometimes it's the little things that make a big difference.

Michel.

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WarpD
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Re: P3D 32 bit no longer sufficient

Postby WarpD » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:08 pm

A 64-bit approach is worthless until the code that controls memory usage is cleaned up and behaving nicely in 32-bit.

No matter how desperately you want 64-bit... it's not the solution to the actual problem. Corrected code is. Once the code behaves... then 64-bit is the next logical step.
Ed Wilson
Senior Developer
Mindstar Aviation

Saul
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Location: Manchester, UK

Re: P3D 32 bit no longer sufficient

Postby Saul » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:08 pm

Hi Michel,

Sorry if I seemed a little defensive. Unfortunately LM aren't ready to announce anything yet.
Keep checking back for the latest news.

mikjet
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:14 am

Re: P3D 32 bit no longer sufficient

Postby mikjet » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:27 pm

WarpD wrote:A 64-bit approach is worthless until the code that controls memory usage is cleaned up and behaving nicely in 32-bit.

No matter how desperately you want 64-bit... it's not the solution to the actual problem. Corrected code is. Once the code behaves... then 64-bit is the next logical step.


I believe it is a combination of the two, moving to 64 bits while continuing to clean and improve the software which LM is doing. With the recent explosion of really good addons, the space these have to operate in has reached its limits. It's like wanting to stuff an elephant into a small car, no matter how much you clean it up, it still won't fit.

But you being a dev, help me understand, I thought the OS managed RAM and assigns memory space to apps, so if the OS is 64 bits, why is the app still restricted to 32 bits? what memory management does the app do by itself? what does it take to convert an app from 32 to 64 bit? a recompile? much more than that?

Michel.

troykr
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Re: P3D 32 bit no longer sufficient

Postby troykr » Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:35 am

Saul James wrote:Its your right to choose if and when you buy updates or addon software. We do don't force anyone to buy and always have our refund policy for those unhappy customers.


The front page of the P3D Website via a cycling banner promotes 3rd party add-on VAS eaters such as ORBX, FlyTampa, and others. So I think it's reasonable for consumers to assume they will work with moderate settings. Maybe those promotions need to include a highlighted warning about them causing VAS issues even on moderate to sparse P3D settings?

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WarpD
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Re: P3D 32 bit no longer sufficient

Postby WarpD » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:42 am

The 'really good addons' are running texture levels that are positively huge and your video card won't like them in the long run. The more large textures you want to load, the smaller your video memory becomes. There's always a cost and everyone thinks that simply recompiling to 64-bit will make everything ok.

If it were even remotely that easy, don't you think most video games would already be 64-bit? (They're not.)

As for who manages RAM... physical RAM is not what we're discussing. We're discussing the virtual address space (VAS) that each and every application has access to. Where that is located is controlled by the OS... how that is allocated is controlled by the application. If the application allocates a block of memory and then fails to release it, memory gets used up in the VAS.

One more note about addons... the more memory they require, the worse they're designed (allegory, not fact). A bad developer is one who thinks only they use memory space and thus can use as much as they desire. There's a lot of that going on in addons.
Ed Wilson
Senior Developer
Mindstar Aviation

deltamike172
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:45 am

Re: P3D 32 bit no longer sufficient

Postby deltamike172 » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:50 pm

I really didn't mean for my post to be construed as a rude demand for 64 bit. I think many people, myself included, have been sucked into the feeling that there is no other way around our OOM issues, especially going a few years into the future, with a 32 bit program. So, there is dissapointment that 64 bits isn't right around the corner, so to speak.

However, it has always bugged me why FSX DX10 preview almost completed eliminated OOMs (PMDG NGX+full ORBX+FSD CYVR was really the only thing that could kill it), and yet P3D didn't have this effect with DX11 (this uses DX11 right?)

Granted, DX10 preview was choppy as hell and had compatibility issues.

So, if V3 were to manage memory the same or better than DX10 preview, but with the same or better current P3d V2.5 performance (the sim runs GREAT now, right up until the OOM :), then I would be totally on board.

Please take any "demand" for 64bit simply as a plea for better VAS management and 99% OOM elimination!

Thankyou

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Rob Ainscough
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Re: P3D 32 bit no longer sufficient

Postby Rob Ainscough » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:46 pm

LM are fully aware of VAS limitations when used with high memory usage 3rd party products. The OOM topic is certainly a "hot topic" and comes up very often.

I understand your frustraction, but I've offered methods to work around OOM issues that don't compromise visuals that much:

1. Pick my departure airport
2. Pick my time and season
3. Set textures to 1024 (some people have a big problem with this one, not sure why - barely any visual difference)
4. Set weather to clear
5. Save flight
6. Exit P3D
7. Double click the saved flight file (.fxml - assume it's associated with P3D) and do standard flight procedures (ASN/weather, FMC, ATC, etc.)
8. If you have an AI traffic manager, this is a good time to use it to reduce VAS usage without affecting an local AI traffic
9. After take-off set textures to 512 (you'll not notice any visual difference at all during flight) but you'll see a big VAS savings
10. At approach to destination airport after it's loaded check VAS, if you have enough VAS headroom switch to 1024 textures if not stay at 512 textures

These have worked for me in the past with very long flights in high VAS aircraft and high VAS airports and high VAS scenery. I understand you'd like LM to provide more VAS headroom but at the same time 3rd party are well aware of how much VAS their products take some provide options to reduce VAS ... if that's not the case you might want to hit up these 3rd party vendors for VAS improvements/options.

I do recommend you try the above to see if it meets your needs and hang in there as P3D product line continues to evolve.

Cheers, Rob.
Rob Ainscough

g7usl
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Re: P3D 32 bit no longer sufficient

Postby g7usl » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:27 pm

Okay LM, you have read the question and a straight answer would be appreciated by everyone.
Are you developing for 64 bits or not?

It's not important to be told how long it's going to take, but a simple 'yes' or a 'no' reply Is just good manners?


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